Identifying Negative Strangleholds in Your Relationships & Essential Skills for Navigating Tough Conversations with Teens

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family’s weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, marriage coaches Dave and Ashley Willis explain how to have a more peaceful home.
Ashley Willis: Because the world says you can only have peace when there's no chaos, or you can only have peace when everything's going exactly as you would like it to go. But the truth is, every time we read about peace in the Bible, it really has nothing to do with our circumstances, but everything to do with the presence. Just His presence.
John Fuller: Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. Dave and Ashley Willis are among our favorite broadcast guests, and I know you're going to find this pre-recorded message fascinating. In a world that often feels chaotic, it's very important to maintain a sense of peace in your home for yourself and for your children. And you'll learn how to do that today. Dave and Ashley have been in ministry together for the past 20 years, focusing on marriage and family relationships. They've authored several books and also have a podcast called Marriage on the Line. Here now Dave and Ashley Willis speaking at a marriage conference sponsored by Church of the Highlands in Birmingham, Alabama, on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Dave Willis: We're going to dive into this talk for the time we have in this session talking about peace in the home. And here's the first principle: we can't control all the chaos happening in the world, but we can control whether or not we allow God's peace to reign in our hearts and our homes. Guys, the world is nuts right now. If you turn on the news for five minutes, you're just going to feel that lack of peace because there's just chaos happening everywhere. And we can't control all of it. We need to be responsible to do what we can in our communities and globally to be about bringing God's peace and God's kingdom to this broken world. But what we do have more control than we realize is what happens in our own home. Is our own home going to be a sanctuary and safe place where we as a couple, us, our kids, whoever is there can experience God's peace in a place where there's joy and laughter and a place where we can bring the troubles of life and deal with them together and pray about them, but ultimately, it's going to be a place of peace. And maybe you didn't grow up in a house like that. Maybe you grew up in chaos and you think that's just how home has to be. But you get the opportunity and the responsibility to break and change that cycle in your home because you're not responsible for the kind of home you grew up in, but you're completely responsible for the kind of home your kids are growing up in. And we've got the opportunity to say, "I want it to look different than it did for me. I want it to look different than it did in my grandparents' generation." Maybe they didn't know the Lord. Maybe they didn't know any better. But now God is showing us there's a different and better way, and we're going to talk about how to live in that reality in our homes. So, one time we accidentally on a road trip left one of our children at a gas station. He's a middle child; he's used to it. No, we stopped for a bathroom break because with that many kids, somebody's always got to go. So, we pull off the road, and I'm mad, and I'm in a hurry. And we get there, and it's a one-seater, and there's this huge long line for this one seat. And I'm like, "We're not doing this. We've got a car full of boys; we'll find a tree, we'll find something. We're not doing this." So I said, "Let's load back up." And we get loaded up and we start driving down the road. And my oldest in the back a few minutes later said, "Hey, Dad? Where's Connor?" And I'm like, "What?" And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think he's here." And I look back, and sure enough, he wasn't. So we drive all the way back to this gas station, and Connor had stayed in that line and had made it all the way up the line and was now in there. And so I run to the front of the line and I'm beating on the door. "Connor, you in there, buddy?" And he's like, "Hey, Dad, I'm in here." I'm like, "Oh good, I was just worried about you. You were taking a while. I told your brothers we couldn't get snacks here, but how about when you get out, you pick out whatever snack you want?" You know, he was fine. But I didn't feel so bad because Jesus' parents did that. Have you read this in the Bible? The people that God picked to raise His son lost Jesus for three days. This was like 15 minutes. Mary, you know, the "Mary Did You Know," I know that Jesus is missing and you need to put out an amber alert because it was like a day before they even knew he was gone. And I think God put stuff like that in the Bible just to make us feel better. Because I just picture Mary and Joseph—can you imagine that search? What are they feeling? When you lose Jesus, what a marriage moment is that? Like, we're definitely going to hell. We lost Jesus. I didn't even know that was theologically possible and we've literally lost Him. But they found Him and it worked out. It's all in the Bible; I don't make any of this stuff up. It's in the Bible. But I'm saying every home has experienced some chaos. Every home has had moments of imperfection, moments where we need God's grace. But truly the good part is through it all, because of His ever-present indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us, we can never—we don't lose Jesus. He's with us through it all. And whatever chaos you brought in here this weekend, whatever fear, whatever uncertainty, whatever panic, whatever you're wrestling with, first off, the first thing I want you to know before we dive into the truth of God's word and what He wants us to know in those moments is you're not alone. And here's part of the reason how I know you're not alone. Every one of us in life is going to face moments that we just feel like, "I'm not equipped to deal with this. I'm not equipped to deal with what's happening in my marriage right now. I'm not equipped to deal with the news of war and panic and chaos and all these things happening all over the world. I'm just not equipped and I don't know what to do." And the most underlined Bible verse kind of speaks to this same thing because this was underlined the most.
Ashley Willis: It's Philippians 4:6 and 7: "Don't worry about anything; instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need and thank Him for all He has done. Then you will experience God’s peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus." And you guys, one of my favorite parts of this verse is where it talks about how God's peace is something that exceeds anything we can understand. And those of you who have had those heart-wrenching moments where literally it takes your breath away, like you've had such a great loss or you've just experienced heartbreak beyond anything that you could ever even imagine, and in that moment when you really turn to the Lord, you had a supernatural peace that you can't even explain. And I know we've had that in our life, and we're going to share a little bit about that. But that's the thing about God's peace: it's not really how the world defines peace. Because the world says you can only have peace when there's no chaos, or you can only have peace when everything's going exactly as you would like it to go. But the truth is, every time we read about peace in the Bible, it really has nothing to do with our circumstances, but everything to do with the presence. Just His presence. And I take great comfort in the fact that we have a God, we have a Savior who is always all too ready to give us peace in the midst of it. And you guys, sometimes He provides peace by changing our circumstances, but most of the time, it has nothing to do with that change of circumstance but everything to do with the presence. Just His presence. Of knowing that we're not alone, of knowing that He never wastes our pain, of knowing that He really is the Prince of Peace in our life.
Dave Willis: And so how do we get it? How do we keep it? Peace, as the Bible describes it, is a gift from God that we must pursue, promote, and protect. It's something that Jesus, the Prince of Peace, wants you to have in your marriage and in your heart and in your home even in those broken-hearted seasons because, as the Bible says, He is near to the brokenhearted; He rescues those whose spirits are crushed. So while we have God's presence with us all the time, it's like the Bible is saying we can experience God's presence in our life in a very unique way in those moments of heartbreak and in those moments where it seems like everything is upside down. That's where we can sense our Savior most. He's always with us; He's omnipresent. He's always with us, but He says, "I'm going to give you this extra portion of My grace and My presence in those moments when you need it most." I heard this mom who had 15 children one time being interviewed, and they asked, "How do you love all your children the same?" And she said, "I don't love them all the same." And it kind of took the interviewer back, and the interviewer said, "Well, which one do you love the most?" And she said, "Whichever one is hurting the most." And I think that's a picture of the heart of God, our perfect compassionate Father, that yes, He loves us all with a limitless love, but yet there's this special place in His heart that's just for those of His children in those moments where my kid's hurting. To me, the shortest verse in the Bible is so comforting: it just says, "Jesus wept." And it reminds me that we've got a Savior who's not distant from our pain. He knows what that feels like. And in our moments of tear and in our moments of pain, He is there to give us peace. Jesus says this: "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give as the world gives. So don't let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
Ashley Willis: Ashley did a word study a few years back on what that peace—what "Shalom" really means. And I discovered something that to me was just—it completely changed the way that I saw peace because I used to see it the way she described a lot of us seeing it. It's just the absence of trouble. And there's always trouble around, and yet God calls us to live perpetually in peace. And I didn't understand what that looked like until she did this deep dive into the Old Testament, and it was mind-blowing for me. Years ago, I wrote a book called *Peace Pirates*, and I just have always longed to have God's peace in my life, like most of us in this room. And after I went through my anxiety and depression battle especially, I just really was like, "How can I keep God's peace in my life?" So I knew that the original Hebrew word for peace is "Shalom." And so when I went to those ancient Hebrew word pictures to see how they would have written "Shalom" to each other, I found this. God's peace is breaking the authority established by chaos. Breaking the authority established by chaos. And so when you really look at what that meaning is and how those Hebrews understood what their Maker really meant when He talked about peace in their lives, when they would hear about God's peace in their lives, it meant nothing about the circumstance and everything about who was the authority in their life. So in essence, it's really about God being our authority and not letting anything else be our authority in our life. So we can't allow that addiction to be the authority in our life. We say, "God, break this. Break this addiction and You be the authority over my life so I don't feel like I'm thrown to and fro by the chaos in my life." It means breaking the anger that is in your home. Not allowing that anger to be the authority, not allowing that to change how you think about your spouse and how you think about your circumstance, but allowing God to be your authority where He says you're a masterpiece, that He has good plans for you. Yes, there are real diagnoses that we all face, but we cannot allow it to be our authority. We must say, "God, You are still my authority. We know You don't waste pain. Lord, be the King over my life." And the more we keep on surrendering our lives to Him and saying, "God, You are the one. You are the authority over my life," the more we will experience His peace. And I just don't know about you, but I think that's amazing because to me, that says that we can get through anything. That says that we always have a Savior right there for us, but it does take us pursuing, promoting, and protecting the peace in our hearts and homes. But it starts with full surrender. And I know this isn't easy. It's so easy as human beings to be taken back by the circumstances that come our way. It's so easy to allow the enemy to let shame set in. But shame is not meant to be a staying place. It's a place of conviction that leads to repentance, literally going the other way, walking away from the thing that is keeping you in shame. But it takes us recognizing what that thing is to be able to walk in that freedom.
John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
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John Fuller: Next year marks 50 years of ministry for Focus on the Family, encouraging families and helping them thrive in Christ every day. How has God used Focus on the Family to strengthen your marriage, guide you in your parenting, restore a relationship, or bring hope in a difficult season? We want to hear your story. Call now and share how Focus on the Family has made an impact in your life. You'll find the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Welcome back to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Let’s return now to the presentation from the Willises as Dave reflects on Ashley’s insights.
Dave Willis: When she discovered that, it helped the scales fall off my eyes to experience God's peace in a new way and the gift of that. To realize I don't have to be ever controlled or defined or ruled by any of the circumstances, any of the chaos that's happening outside in the world because none of that is my authority. And it's just a reminder to me when I'm feeling fear, uncertainty, or anxiety about that chaos or about whatever I might be facing, to run back into the arms of my Savior and remind myself that, "Lord, You're my authority. You're my God. You're the one who's bigger than everything that I'm facing and You love me more than I can imagine." And this pain that I'm facing is a temporary pain because that's the promise we have as Christians: every pain we'll ever face is a temporary pain, and every joy we'll ever experience is an eternal joy. And when we keep that perspective, it helps us to get through those difficult seasons to know this, too, shall pass. This is temporary. And yet we have a very real enemy who does everything he can to try to make us feel overwhelmed by whatever is happening around us because that's part of his game plan: he wants you to feel overwhelmed, isolated, alone, in shame, in bondage, in guilt, and to make you feel like the chaos has completely taken over. We saw a visual reminder of this on a trip. We took a big birthday trip for Ashley a while back and went to a place we'd always wanted to go and were hiking through a forest in Costa Rica, which is just a beautiful little place. It is so beautiful. And so we were there hiking around and we came across this big tree. And Ashley asked the tour guide, said, "What's up with this tree?" And when he explained it, it was like a reinforcement of some of these principles. It ties into this.
Ashley Willis: I said, "Can you tell me more about it?" And he's like, "I'm so glad you asked me about this because this tree is considered to be kind of a freak of nature." And he said, "It's actually a symbiotic tree. The tree that you're looking at used to have a host tree inside of it." And I was like, "What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, we actually call this tree the Strangler Tree." And he said, "And here's why. So, the Strangler Tree forms a root system close to a healthy tree or host tree. And when it realizes that that healthy tree has a good light source, good water source, good air source, and good nutrients, it basically kind of slithers its roots towards the tree and tries to act like it's just being a friend of that tree." And scientists literally refer to what the Strangler Tree does to the host tree as "nature's unwanted hug," which I just thought was really sweet and kind of creepy. But anyway, so he's basically going up near that tree like, "Hey, can I just—can I get some of this sunlight with you? I just need a little bit, and maybe just a little bit of your water." And little by little, that Strangler Tree goes around and around and around, and its root system just keeps on getting tighter and tighter and tighter around the host tree before the host tree even realizes it. And it forms this fortress around it, and eventually, it sucks the life out of the host tree and literally chokes it out and takes all of its water source, all of its light source, all of the nutrients, and the very air that it needs to survive. And as I was looking at this, it reminded me of another thing I found in my research when I was researching "Shalom." And I found this other Hebrew word that is very closely related to "Shalom," and it's the word "Shalal." It's spelled S-H-A-L-A-L. It's taking authority or seizing authority by destructive means. Yeah. So when I saw that Strangler Tree, I was like, "Well, there's Shalal. There's a physical example in nature of what Shalal is." And thankfully, we don't have to be like that Strangler Tree, but I do feel like there's things in our life that are like Strangler Trees. There's things in our life—relationships in our life, habits in our life—that are literally sucking the very life out of us. And the enemy would love for us to believe that we've got to have to be like that healthy tree and allow these things to overtake us. But we have a God that says He is greater, that there is nothing that He cannot overcome. There is nothing in our life that He cannot help us with. But we have to be able to recognize it, and it takes us being mindful and saying, "Lord, search my heart." And even as a married couple, "Lord, search our hearts. Please reveal the Strangler Trees in our life." Because just like that Strangler Tree was so crafty with that host tree, there's little blind spots in our life where we get going on autopilot and we're just trucking along, and before you know it, there's this thing in our life and we're like that host tree, and all of a sudden, it's like we have this fortress around us and we can't really think clearly and we can't really see clearly and our relationship is a little bit rocky and we're like, "What happened?" And that's why we've got to keep rooted and surrendered to the Lord because He will help us to see what these things are. And I'm telling you all, we have a powerful God that comes in and rescues us and busts up that root system and says He is My child, she is My child, stop messing with My kids. And I just want to say this: that we have the God that we know in the Word, it says He raises dead things to life. Well, He raises dead marriages to life. Like you might have come to this conference and felt like this is our last-ditch effort. We're going to go through the motions, we're going to say we did it, we went through the motions, we tried. But I want you to know that God has you here for a reason because He wants to give you something new. He is doing something new for you and He is bringing you new life. And He can take your marriage to a place that you never thought it could go. But it takes time. It takes also honesty. It takes vulnerability and being willing to reveal the Strangler Trees in your life and allow God to do the work that He needs to do to make you healthy once again.
Dave Willis: And that's a powerful and beautiful picture of what God wants for all of us. And so how do we get there? We remember to embrace peace when we remember we don't have to carry our burdens alone. And in marriage especially, we should never carry our burdens alone. So you have a burden-bearer in Christ and also in your spouse. First in Christ. Jesus said, "Come to me all who are weary and carry heavy burdens and I will give you rest." That our Savior is calling us to Him and saying, "Let Me take that weight off your shoulders. You were never meant to carry it. Let Me carry that for you as you just put your trust and your hope in Me. Let Me walk with you through this." And then within marriage, we should do this: carry each other's burdens, and in this way, you will fulfill the law of Christ. That your joys in marriage when you share your joys, the joys get twice as joyful. And in marriage when you share your burdens, the burdens get less than half as heavy because when we're sharing each other's burdens, it makes the load much easier to bear. And that's why there's never just his burden or her burden; it's always ours. It's always something we're going to face together. And I think that we miss out on that sometimes because we're prone to focus on the wrong things. Like the enemy is a great distractor, and he wants to get your eyes focused on the wrong things. He wants your eyes focused on everything that you feel is wrong with your spouse or everything they're doing that annoys you or everything that's chaotic out in the world or everything that you feel is wrong with yourself. And we've got to sometimes start by shifting our perspective and say, "Lord, help me to be Philippians 4:8. Let me fix my mind and my thoughts on that which is good and beautiful and pleasing and excellent and worthy of praise." It doesn't mean I put my head in the sand to pretend like the problems aren't there, but it lets me look at those struggles with the right perspective. We've got to be able to put our perspective and our eyes on the right thing because you're going to find whatever you keep looking for. Jesus said whatever you keep seeking is what you will find. So if you're always looking for a reason to be stressed, you're going to find reasons to be stressed. If you're always looking for those annoying things your spouse does, then those annoying things your spouse does are all you're going to see. But if you switch your perspective and say, "Lord, help me to see the reasons to be thankful. Help me to see the reasons to be joyful. God, help me to be reminded of Your promises. Help me to put my eyes on the right place." Because sometimes we don't know, "Lord, where do You want me to fix my focus?" Because there's all different kinds of things competing for my attention. And help my eyes, my heart, to be drawn to what You want me to focus on. And where He's going to draw your eyes over and over again is to that which is good and lovely and pleasing and excellent, worthy of praise. And when He draws your mind to something that's negative within yourself, it's because it's the Holy Spirit's way of conviction to say, "I'm drawing your eyes here because even though it's uncomfortable, it's a place where I want to work in you. It's a place where I want to come alongside you and bring healing." When He draws your eyes to something that's broken in the marriage, it's because He's saying, "This is a problem you guys have let grow worse by completely avoiding it and I want you to, as a team, come alongside Me and let Me—let Me carry you through this." But this is something that has to be addressed because until you deal with this, it's going to be what's holding you back. And so part of our prayer should always be, "Lord, don't let me have blind spots. Show me what within me You need me to work on, what within our marriage You need me to work on. But help me always to defer to kindness and to look for the good in my spouse and to be their biggest encourager and not their biggest critic." Some people, have you ever been around somebody who acts like criticism is their spiritual gift? Have you ever been around these folks? They make it churchy; they won't call it criticism, they'll call it discernment. "I'm just discerning; I can tell everything that's wrong with you." It's like, that's not a spiritual gift; you're being a jerk and making it sound churchy. But encouragement is a spiritual gift and it's one we're called to give. We've got to be each other's biggest encouragement.
John Fuller: And that’s where we’ll end this message from Dave and Ashley Willis, speaking at Church of the Highlands in Birmingham, Alabama, on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim Daly: What a great message, John. And I want to thank Dave and Ashley for allowing us to share it with our listeners, with you. I love Dave’s final point that we tend to magnify whatever we focus on, and we need to be mindful of that. It’s really not that hard to change our focus and be an encourager to our spouse and our children. And if you struggle with that, let me remind you that Focus on the Family has a great team of caring Christian counselors that would be happy to give you a free one-time consultation. These are really talented, compassionate folks that can listen to your story, pray with you, and offer some helpful follow-up resources. Here’s what we heard from Betsy about her experience with the team: “Over the years of raising four kids, I’ve spoken to your counselors for prayer and received so much support, as well as several helpful books. A few years ago, my grown daughters called Focus for prayer and advice on a situation that involved a family conflict. I was so blessed that they too looked to Focus on the Family for counsel. Thank you for being there for all of us.” And that’s amazing.
John Fuller: It really is. What a testimony to God’s goodness to use this ministry to make generational impact.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and we can’t do it alone. We thank the Lord for the work He’s done through our counselors, and we are also thankful to the families that regularly donate to support the ministry and that counseling work. You’re making it possible to help other families like Betsy’s. And if you haven’t given to Focus, may I ask you to consider doing so? You can do ministry by financially supporting us. I believe that’s how the Lord sees it. I will commit to running Focus effectively and efficiently so you can do ministry through it. The best way to help us is with a monthly pledge. It doesn’t have to be a large amount; it’s the consistency that helps us balance our budget and plan for future outreach. And when you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we’d like to send you a book written by Ashley Willis called *Peace Pirates: Conquering the Beliefs and Behaviors that Steal Your Treasure in Motherhood*. As the mother of four boys, Ashley has a lot of experience in this area. And if you can’t make a monthly pledge right now, we understand. We can also send you the book for a one-time gift of any amount.
John Fuller: Yeah, take the next step in pursuing Shalom in your home with this great book from Ashley Willis. Donate at focusonthefamily.com/weekend or when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And when you get a hold of us by phone, be sure to connect with one of those counselors if that would be of help to you. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we help you and your family thrive in Christ. You’re listening to Focus on the Family’s weekend broadcast. We’ll take a quick break here and then return with another faith-building program for your family. Stay tuned.
Guest (Female): I feel like I blinked and now my newborn can walk and talk. Kids change so fast, don't they? It can be hard to keep up with each new phase. That's why I love Focus on the Family's Age and Stage newsletter. Each week, I get an email with resources curated by experts. They're full of biblically and clinically based tips tailored to your child, no matter what age they are. You can sign up today at mykidsage.com. That's mykidsage.com.
John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming. You want to make your home a really welcome place for your kids to have their friends over, and then you get to see what they’re like and be the carpooling mom or dad, where you’re driving them places and they’re going to forget you’re there and they have all these conversations going on. My wife was great with that and she learned a lot. That’s Tim Shoemaker, and he and his son Mark join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for being here. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, it is a great opportunity to find a way to communicate truth to your teens on some of those big conversations that you need to have. But today we want to discuss how to get your frame of mind in a place to identify when that opportunity comes—not just on "the big talk" we always refer to it as "the big talk," but all the other talks that need to be brought up about spiritual development and loving the Lord and how to treat people and all the sacred things that we want to communicate.
John Fuller: We have to be ready, as you said, and we have two great guests to help us understand how to have those conversations. Tim Shoemaker is an author, speaker, and writing coach. He and his wife, Sheryl, have three adult sons, three daughters-in-law, and 12 grandchildren. One of his sons, Mark, joins us today. Mark is a campus pastor at the Bridge Community Church in Illinois. Together, this father-son duo has written a book called *What to Say and How to Say It to Your Teen: A Parent’s Guide to 30 Tricky Conversations*. And we’ll encourage you to get a copy of that book.
Jim Daly: Tim and Mark, it’s great to have you on Focus on the Family.
Mark Shoemaker: It’s great to be here.
Jim Daly: It’s fun. I love these conversations because I think partly I’m eager to hear about it. I had that posture when my boys were younger. I wanted to know, "Yeah, how are other people communicating with their children? What can I learn from it?" So that’s the spirit in which we’re providing this discussion today. So, when you look at 30 tricky conversations, is the one I just described the number one conversation, or what would you say is the number one or two conversation when you look at tricky conversations?
Tim Shoemaker: There’s probably not even one that we’d make the book as far as some of the things we have to talk to them about. There’s cultural issues, there’s those spiritual issues, there’s spiritual life. We want to talk to them about the whole aspect of dating, especially if they’re teens. What does it look like? Why do we date? When are you ready to date? So many different things like that. Their personal habits, their emotions, their anxiety. So many kids are wrestling with that. Some of these things our kids are going to hide from us, they’re going to mask it, but they’re thinking about it. We need to talk about it.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you this. We’re getting into deep waters already. If a parent listening or watching doesn’t have that relationship with their teenager, what are one or two things they can do to turn that ship toward a relationship of trust for that young teen?
Tim Shoemaker: If they don’t have it—and I’d love to hear Mark’s thoughts on that—but to me, if they don’t have that, I’d be honest about it. I wouldn’t just gloss over it like that isn’t a thing and all of a sudden try to be this great friend and "I’m there and I’m listening."
Jim Daly: Yeah, you can’t be just the friend.
Tim Shoemaker: So I think I’d fess up; I’d have that conversation and say, "You know what? I feel like I haven’t been there for these things and I want to do better." And maybe I would even ask that teen for some ideas. I would certainly want to talk to some other, maybe some parents. In my case, I’d talk to my wife because she’s going to have insights and say, "Hey, you know, if I’ve been missing it." And then another quick thing, Jim, is we have so many distractions, right? Maybe I’ve got a habit with my phone. I’ve got to put that away so I can make time to build the relationship with your son or daughter.
Jim Daly: Let me ask you this. When a teen breaks that trust—you know, the whole bond is built on trust. Hopefully, you as a parent are doing all the right things, but you know there may come a time when that teen breaks your trust as a parent. They borrowed the car, something happened, they didn’t tell you about it. I mean, it can be all sorts of situations again, or they went to the party that you told them not to go to, whatever that might be. What do we do as a parent in that situation to continue to build relationship but also have the boundaries, back to your "it’s not being just a friend"? What do you do, Tim?
Tim Shoemaker: Reminds me of a time I’d messed up. I was 17 and—have you heard this story, Mark?
Mark Shoemaker: I’ve only heard the story, but I actually don’t know what’s in it or behind it. Right, here we go.
Tim Shoemaker: So I had messed up. It was the worst mess-up of my life to that point. And I had thought I can get away with it, you know. I’d underestimated the conviction of the Holy Spirit, right? And so then I confess. I talk to my mom, and then of course there was going to be a talk with my dad. But the way my dad handled it was so good. I saw he was disappointed. He didn’t yell, but I remember him—we sat around the kitchen table, my siblings were downstairs, and he said, "You know what? I don’t know if I should hit you or what, Tim." And in my mind, I’m thinking, "Hit me, hit me, I would feel better," because I felt so guilty. I’d seen I hurt him. I saw the disappointment. That to me was the worst thing; I’d disappointed my dad. And it turned me. He may not have known it. And that would be encouragement for your parents, too, that are listening. My dad probably went to bed thinking he was a failure, you know? But he instead talked to me about not how bad I was, but "Tim, this isn’t you. This isn’t the you that I know you want to be. You made a bad choice." And boy, I wanted to build it back. I didn’t want to disappoint him again. And so yeah, that was some experience I have with that, with how a dad handled it. He didn’t have anything fancy to say; his love came through, not anger, but also his disappointment.
Jim Daly: And that was powerful. In the book, you use a scuba diving analogy about these tough conversations. How does that connect to this moment?
Tim Shoemaker: Well, when you take a dive, you generally have a goal. Maybe you’re over a reef, you want to see fish, you want to see shark, maybe you want to see a wreck. There’s always something you really want to do. And that can become the primary reason for your dive, but you’ve got to change that. Your primary goal on every dive has got to be to come back safely, you and your buddy. And so when I’m down there and maybe my judgment isn’t as good, I don’t want my first goal to be to find that shark or to find that whatever because I might make a bad judgment. But if my first priority is to come back safely, me and my buddy, that changes. I might not see what I was hoping to see on this dive, but I’m going to come back safe. Primary goal hit. Same thing with a conversation with our kids. Primary goal: you want to come back from this conversation, these tricky conversations, safe, you and your teen. You know, you don't want to be burning bridges, you don't want to be taking shots at them, you don't want to bully them, you don't want to hurt the relationship you want to build it.
Jim Daly: Mark, let—and I love that analogy actually. I’m not a diver but I can grab the concept. Mark, in those moments when parents have to have that tough conversation about something, a behavioral issue, an incident, whatever it might be—you can’t let it go, shouldn’t let it go, and need to use it as a teaching point. How do you—now, you have kids too, right? All under 12. So you’re right around the corner. So that’s—no, it’s really good. And you’re speaking to us from that perspective, both as the son growing up under Tim and then the father who’s about to enter the teen years with your kids being 12 and under. But in that context, how do you think a parent needs to frame it for themselves as they go into those tough conversations because it’s so easy to come out with conflict and that then becomes the beginning, potentially the beginning of trouble in the relationship that could be end in rebellion over three, four years. How would you coach a parent to prepare themselves for that? Not just for conflict but for positive conversation?
Mark Shoemaker: I think some of it is the mindset going into it that this isn't about winning an argument or being smarter in that moment and so it’s kind of just come to my side and I’ll—I’ll show it by just proving that I’m right in that moment. And so I think going into it with the objective, like he’s saying of coming back both of you together, but also: what do I want them to really get? Where do I want their heart to be at the end of this? Knowing that this one talk doesn’t have to be the full talk. I don’t have to move them the entire way in this conversation exactly to where I am right now. But this is a process. And so I think approaching with that mindset, making sure you’re praying about it before you go into it, giving yourself time to prep. I think is huge and really thinking through, praying through it, talking to other people.
Jim Daly: What are my goals? What do I want to achieve in this discussion? Yeah, where do I want their heart to be in it? That is good to do. It’s hard to do because emotionally you’re probably amped up because you’re upset. But man, the better way. Think of the Lord talking to people that were antagonistic to Him. He is the Son of God and they’re accusing Him of being of the devil and other things. Think of the patience He had to deal with these people. I mean, you have no clue what you’re talking about. And you know—but He never really expressed it that way, you know? He would ask questions. Let me ask you this. I mean, in that moment, a parent can sound like a bully, you know, trying to win the argument but lose the battle overall. What are some common phrases or habits we shouldn’t employ in that moment? Just teach us what the "don’ts" are and then we’ll go to the "dos."
Tim Shoemaker: Anything that we would do that would exasperate them, you know, pushing their buttons, hitting them with the "you always do this" or "you never do that."
Jim Daly: That��s an easy one.
Tim Shoemaker: Yeah, real easy for us to do. I think a real "don’t" that we have to be careful of is interrupting. It’s already thinking we know their motives behind whatever it was that they did. And so we assign that motive to them and we’ve already got them figured out. Hey, only God knows the heart. You might make a guess, but that exasperates our kids if they think that, you know, the jury is already fixed or whatever in that. So these are things that we want to be careful of. They’re conversation killers. And that is a form of bullying.
Jim Daly: I don’t know that this is mostly dads, but I think sarcasm is a really important one because I think we go there, it’s almost like relief to us to put it in that context. What does that sound like, sarcasm toward a teen in a moment of desperation?
Mark Shoemaker: Like, "Here we go again. Okay. Like, I knew you were going to say that." Some of it is sarcasm even I think of like facial expressions too, where it’s communicating you’re not really listening and I’m like three steps ahead of you. And so that’s I think what the sarcasm is doing and it—it then you’re just shutting them down, really. Like you’re really not going to be able to really learn really where they’re at and then what they actually need to hear from you, which is what’s wild about that with the sarcasm and some of those conversation killers. It does feel good for us, sorry, I kind of just jumped in here. But you feel pretty good about it in that moment, but you’re hijacking the conversation because now they think you’re not really listening. And I saw this with students a lot where then it’s like, "And now I don’t actually know where they’re at. And now I don’t actually know what I need to say and what they need to hear and where to take this next, you know?"
John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.
Guest (Male): Teen anxiety is far more common than many realize. Racing thoughts and fear about the future can be overwhelming, but real hope is available. On Fearless Faith, you'll hear young adults share how they've navigated anxiety with support and faith. I'll walk you through where anxiety often begins along with practical steps towards healing. This message reminds you you're not alone and help is real. Learn more at navigatingteenanxiety.com.
John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming.
Jim Daly: Let’s hit some of the positive sides. I like the first one you talk about: pray. I think in the heat of the moment, even thinking of something that happened three days ago, as you begin to think of that interaction with your child, with your teen, your energy can come up. So the idea of praying ahead of time might not be the first thing you think about, but it probably is. I would say it definitely is the first thing you should do. Beyond pray, then what’s another of the to-dos?
Tim Shoemaker: Another one is—and I think Mark mentioned it—get reinforcements. See if you can get somebody else to pray for you. You only need one, but get a prayer warrior and say, "Hey, I’m going to have a tricky conversation. Would you be praying for my heart and for their heart in this conversation?" So I think that’d be—and then think about your atmosphere. Where are you going to have this conversation? And when? Because you think about it, you pick the wrong place and time to do it and your conversation just got a lot harder.
Jim Daly: And so much of that is the opposite of what we just said. Put your phone away, resist the urge to interrupt. And that’s important.
Mark Shoemaker: Yeah, I love the atmosphere one. How many times that that’s helped me in our conversations when you talked to me about sex. I still remember we were driving to Wisconsin.
Jim Daly: You will always remember this conversation.
Mark Shoemaker: I will. And it was so helpful that we were driving because I could just look out the window the whole time.
Jim Daly: You were trapped.
Mark Shoemaker: Yeah, I was all of a sudden very interested in the countryside, you know. "Look at that tree, look at that." But it helped so much. You know, and we talk about that in the book and try to offer different suggestions of when you’re in different—sometimes it’s a restaurant. And I think that that communicates something: there’s value that is shown to a teenager to bring them out and to have a conversation there. Maybe it’s a walk and you’re shoulder to shoulder and you’re—you’re having that conversation there. There’s a lot of different thoughts that we’ve put into atmosphere.
Jim Daly: You know, one of the core things—and we’ve done a couple of shows with Heather Holleman if you haven’t heard those, I’d get the app and go listen to them because she’s really good, she’s a professor at Penn State. And she talks about effective communication, how to listen, how to ask questions that actually draw people’s hearts out, which again is another Jesus trait. But for a parent to do that with the teen—speak to the importance of understanding how to engage and listen without being three steps ahead. Don’t go there. Just listen. How important is that? And how do you do that? Because I’ve already got the answer, Mark.
Mark Shoemaker: I think it’s being a student of your kids as well as you know them on so many different things. And a lot of our conversations here as we’re trying to talk through how to have them start with a good question to try to get them to talk about it. It feels a little bit like a softer entrance ramp, too, into the conversation. We’re not just coming in hot with what we want to say on it, but we want to hear where they’re at. And as they’re talking about it, I’m not just thinking about my objective and where I’m going to take them, but thinking really of the best route to get there based on what they’re saying, based on what they’re struggling with, based on what their fears are or maybe their understanding or lack of understanding of the Bible in that situation as they’re talking about it. So we’re listening for all those things to think about how best to answer.
Jim Daly: That’s really good. It is. So I need some help for a friend, we'll say, who feels like during those years, those teen years, there was a loss of respect. "I needed to be—I mean, my friend needed to be respected." So give me a script for reintroducing the respect that I would like to see in the conversations that we have that doesn’t happen. I get the eye rolls, the shutdown, the put-down.
Tim Shoemaker: You know, if you can go back and try to figure out when you started losing the respect. I think that would be an important thing. And sometimes they won’t tell you, but if they see that you know it, you realize it, and, "You know, somewhere along the line I lost something and I want to earn it back. And if you can help me, you know, what is Dad missing? What have I missed here? How can—how can we build this back?" But I’d also ask somebody else, you know, if you can ask your wife, if you can ask somebody else who might have some insight. Maybe you’re going to go to the youth pastor; they might have opened up and they’ve said some things. And now at least you can know where to begin.
Jim Daly: It’s so true. You know, the—I don’t know if it’s an idiom, an axiom, whatever—"respect is earned." Mark, I’d love to hear from you in terms of: how does a father earn that respect rather than just expect it to be given because "I’m your dad"? "Do so because I told you to do so" kind of thing? I mean, there is a responsibility on our part as being the fathers to earn that respect from their kids. Now, people are right now going, "What? That should just be given." But I don’t think so. I think if you’re mistreating your child, you’re saying they should respect that? No way.
Mark Shoemaker: So for me, I think it was a few things, but it’s seeing his daily habits, who he was, his character in and out, being real and authentic in all those moments of life. I think some of it, especially as I’m getting into teenagers, I’m seeing he’s teaching me and taking time to teach me how to be a man, which means he’s passing that off to me, which helps me respect him more because now it’s not a fight for me to prove myself to you. When I turned 18, and he made a big deal about it leading up into it, it was this rite of passage night and invited a bunch of men into the room. And it helps me respect him when he’s encouraging me on my road to be a man and he’s talking like that to me. But he’s got to be living it himself. He lived in a way and continues to that I strive to want to be. As a student pastor, I saw parents and students wrestle with this a lot. And what was so sad is I would be hearing from the students: they wanted to respect their parents. That’s what was grieving them about it.
Jim Daly: It’s like built into their heart to want to.
Mark Shoemaker: And that was like at the core of what was so difficult for them. So while maybe the parents and me initially all I’m hearing is the anger at all these things that the parents were doing or the dad was doing that was unfair or whatever. As harsh of a critic as they might have been of their parent, at the core of that was just a disappointment of who they wanted them to be. And I will say I did see many times parents earn that back, dads earn that back because they noticed it and they saw and they started new habits. I do think they’re forgiving in that way—not every time, and it might take longer in some situations than others, but I’ve seen it. I’ve seen that be built back up.
Jim Daly: Yeah, and it’s so critical. And you know, this idea between behavior engagement—if I could call it that—versus heart development, it seems so subtle but it’s so important because if we’re just on the behavioral modification, "do this, don’t do that," and we’re zapping the mice in our teenager, we don’t get the heart. They don’t understand the whys. And I mean it is so critical to explain the whys, the heart attitude, and to develop that because if you can catch that at the front of the fountain, the trailhead of the river, right? If you can catch that, then the behavior will come and the Scripture says that, you know, from out of the heart flows your words and your life attitude. So the goal here, I think for us as parents with teens, is to teach the heart and then the behavior should come, as opposed to just concentrating on behavior.
Mark Shoemaker: That’s all of it. And that’s one of the reasons why we recommend having follow-up conversations afterwards. It might feel like a relief when you get through the conversation. You’re like, "Oh good, we did that." But it’s not just for the sake of having the conversation; it’s the heart and you want to see that. So a great way to take the temperature of the heart is to come back to it later and a week later check in with a really good question: "How’s that going? How’s that new habit you wanted to do?" or "How’s—" because we really do want to see the heart changing in that.
Jim Daly: So true. You know, another area that we should cover is getting to know the friends of your sons and daughters, but to go out of your way. Jean and I, and I give Jean a lot of credit—she’s great when the boys, you know, when their friends would come over, you know, she’d give them a big hug and say, "It’s so good to have you at the house, and we think the world of your mom and dad," and all positive. And I think that just helps; it helps set an environment. And even with some of that, you know, having conversations with those friends that maybe those friends aren’t even having with their parents. And you’ve got to tread gently in that area, but it’s nice to have that relationship. Speak to the importance of that.
Tim Shoemaker: You know, I love what you said about with Jean and the kids being there. You want to make your home a really welcome place for your kids to have their friends over, and then you get to see what they’re like and be the carpooling mom or dad, you know where you’re driving them places and they’re going to forget you’re there and they have all these conversations going on. My wife was great with that and she learned a lot.
Jim Daly: Now, let me ask right at the end here the perhaps most important question for that parent with their teen. Everything we’ve talked about they’ve winced. "Oh, I did bully. I remember bullying. I remember using sarcasm. I used it as an escape; I didn’t know what to do." You know, whatever justification they’re giving. And they’re hearing this conversation going, "Man, that’s me. That’s what I’ve done as a dad, that’s what I’ve done as a mom." What do they do to reset that with their 15-year-old today? I mean, tonight around the dinner table, what do we do differently?
Mark Shoemaker: I would start with the apology there and to be able to acknowledge it and that does go a long way. Obviously backed up by how you live and stuff like that. I’d be careful not to make grand promises of like, "I’m never going to do that again" or whatever because then you’re just going to add to it when you do mess up again. But I think that humility has a way of tearing down some of the walls of maybe resentment that have built up over time. But that apology goes a long way.
Tim Shoemaker: Then I’m going to make sure I remember. So I’m going to write notes. If I’m coming into the house or the kids are coming in, whatever, it’s a time to remember. "Okay, God, help me have the heart. You know, I’m surrendering to You, Holy Spirit work in me to be the man that I need to be for them because this is way beyond me. This is about their heart and about their future and about their relationship with God." All of that is on the line because if we break those communication things with them, they’ll talk to somebody but just not us.
Jim Daly: Yeah, it’s so true. Well, this has been great. Tim and Mark, what a wonderful discussion and a great book: *What to Say and How to Say It to Your Teen: A Parent’s Guide to 30 Tricky Conversations*. And we barely scratched the surface. Let me turn to the listeners. Focus on the Family is here. We’re here to help you and your family to thrive in Christ. That’s our goal, that’s our mission every day. And we want to equip you, Mom and Dad, as you’re raising the future generation. We offer a library of trusted resources, articles, programs like this one, videos and more. You can find that really in something we’re calling Age and Stage, and that’s when you have children 0 to 18, come to the website, find Age and Stage, put in your children’s birth date and we’ll send you every week information on how to parent that three-year-old, that 15-year-old, all the way up to 18. And it is great content for you. And we also have Tim and Mark’s wonderful book, *What to Say and How to Say It to Your Teen: A Parent’s Guide to 30 Tricky Conversations*. Very practical field manual that helps you tackle the toughest conversations with your teens using grace, biblical wisdom, and communication that builds trust instead of pushing them away with legalism. I think every parent would say yes. And when you make a gift of any amount, hopefully a monthly pledge, that would really help us, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
John Fuller: Yeah, make that monthly donation or one-time gift when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. Or online, you can donate and request this great book and sign up for the Age and Stage e-newsletter at focusonthefamily.com/weekend. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.